tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post113357325127385860..comments2020-04-03T14:11:13.943-07:00Comments on Who Has Time For This?: Lion BaitDavid Cowanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13075075203254308405noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-86613327229771486802009-06-03T18:40:48.870-07:002009-06-03T18:40:48.870-07:00I just found out this blog.
This puzzle was actual...I just found out this blog.<br />This puzzle was actually asked to during my Oxford Interview in 2006.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17925594710342975151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-46402705206376619902008-03-16T14:48:00.000-07:002008-03-16T14:48:00.000-07:00the lion is pretecting the sheep. Like how even th...the lion is pretecting the sheep. Like how even though God could tear us up and torture us he dosent/ Because he loves usAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-21624899122125731872008-01-20T11:15:00.000-08:002008-01-20T11:15:00.000-08:00Peace, they are not threatened by one another they...Peace, they are not threatened by one another they feel calm and comfortable and in this particular interaction they feel no need or desire to feed.<BR/><BR/>Good example of what it is to just be.<BR/><BR/>Friends yet one prey and one a carnivore .... we tend to look at the evil that the world portrays aka the NEWS but rarely are we aware that with all the evil in this world there is just as much good to go along with it!!<BR/><BR/>Yin~Yang baby....this is hot ....love it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1143454017904397152006-03-27T02:06:00.000-08:002006-03-27T02:06:00.000-08:00I know this is a old post but wanted to add this.....I know this is a old post but wanted to add this...<BR/>The first lion doesn't want to risk being eaten so he walks away after some time, the second does the same and the third and so on the Nth lion gets to eat the lamb as it needn't worry about being eaten. Good things come to those who wait in lion (sorry)!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17567372758347040220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1141033801195036962006-02-27T01:50:00.000-08:002006-02-27T01:50:00.000-08:00I blogged about these and other puzzles today. Tha...I blogged about these and other puzzles today. Thanks for my resurgent interest in logic games.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136622320083279512006-01-07T00:25:00.000-08:002006-01-07T00:25:00.000-08:00Don't tell me economists have abandoned their favo...Don't tell me economists have abandoned their favoured if not well empirically supported assumption that it is "rational" to prefer the gain of $1.00 over all other possible outcomes from an interaction (ie possibility of reputational signalling in a multiple period/interaction working relationship), and moved on to the animal kingdom. I am assuming this question has the status of a thought experiment and does not require the student to specify assumptions about "rationality" in the lion world - never mind whether rationality is even a relevant concept - anthropomorphism perchance.....itisnighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16705366351560098087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136519796160265642006-01-05T19:56:00.000-08:002006-01-05T19:56:00.000-08:00Your assumption states that all lions are super-ra...Your assumption states that all lions are super-rational but that does not imply identical. Such are the flaws of game theory.Alyssa Snyderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03610767643976212457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136422217643586962006-01-04T16:50:00.000-08:002006-01-04T16:50:00.000-08:00Ah, yes, that's true. :)I assumed that the other ...Ah, yes, that's true. :)<BR/><BR/>I assumed that the other lions would be thinking so hard, it wouldn't be difficult to slip a quick paw under someone's chin and slit their throat. <BR/><BR/>MAN, this is a violent math problem, huh?<BR/><BR/>I'm always trying to break things. Would you be so kind as to let me try again?<BR/><BR/>Suppose an even number of lions. One lion could walk away from the situation, leaving behind an odd number. Then, one of the lions who is left would eat the lamb, ensured of his safety. The first lion could, after waiting a reasonable amount of time behind the nearest baobab tree, come back and have an excellent meal of lion stuffed with lamb.<BR/><BR/>Of course, the other lions, being super-rational, might guess what he's up to, and not fall for the trick.<BR/><BR/>What do you think?<BR/><BR/>Are you getting tired of this puzzle? I'll stop if you are.Bapudihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378055512802727097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136342538997393192006-01-03T18:42:00.000-08:002006-01-03T18:42:00.000-08:00Bapudi,You are introducing a new assumption when y...Bapudi,<BR/><BR/>You are introducing a new assumption when you say that even though the lions are the same, one can confidently kill another even though the vicitm is NOT tired and defenseless. There is a reason that in the problem statement lions are said to be defenseless only AFTER eating an animal. Prior, they can defend themseleves quite well, and trying to kill one isn't advisable. <BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075075203254308405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136338720272930302006-01-03T17:38:00.000-08:002006-01-03T17:38:00.000-08:00I re-read my initial comment, as well as your resp...I re-read my initial comment, as well as your response to it, and I am puzzled.<BR/><BR/>I didn't miss that sentence in the puzzle, and I can't figure out how it seems that I did. <BR/><BR/>Maybe I have been unclear. I'll try to map out more clearly what I am saying:<BR/><BR/>Starting state: 4 hungry lions, 1 sheep = stable (no one gets eaten)<BR/><BR/>Action: One lion kills another lion.<BR/><BR/>New State: Three hungry lions and one sheep = unstable<BR/><BR/>Action: The murdering lion eats the sheep (or the dead lion).<BR/><BR/>New State: 1 defenseless lion, 2 hungry lions (and possibly a sheep, depending on whether the lion eats the sheep or the dead lion) = stable. The full, defenseless lion is safe.Bapudihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378055512802727097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136337857925141562006-01-03T17:24:00.000-08:002006-01-03T17:24:00.000-08:00David, No, I didn't miss that statement, and my sc...David, <BR/>No, I didn't miss that statement, and my scenario does not ignore it. Allow me to explain.<BR/><BR/>You stated a good summary of Rob's solution in your last post:<BR/>"....the condition of two hungry lions and one defenseless animal (be it feline or bovine) is stable, but 3 hungry lions is not. 4 hungry lions is therefore stable (no one wants to be the defenseless animal in the unstable situation of 3 hungry lions)."<BR/><BR/>Here is what I am proposing: suppose there are 4 lions. The condition is stable, and all the lions know it. No one can touch that sheep.<BR/><BR/>Knowing this, one lion could kill another lion and NOT EAT IT. Now there are *only 3 hungry lions*, an unstable number. Now one of the 3 remaining lions can eat the sheep with perfect impunity. After he eats the sheep, he will be defenseless, but there will only be 2 hungry lions left, and neither one will dare attack him. <BR/><BR/>Also, since the puzzle explicitly makes lion and lamb meat equivalent, a lion could totally ignore the sheep, and eat the dead lion. Either way, after he has eaten, there are only two hungry lions left, and he's safe.<BR/><BR/>To state it another way, what Rob has missed is that a super-rational lion could undertake to CHANGE THE NUMBER OF LIONS PRESENT by commiting felicide. <BR/><BR/>In other words, an even number of lions can be made into an odd number of lions by lion murder.<BR/><BR/>If all the lions realized this scenario at the same time, they could potentially all try to kill each other at once (a bloodbath). Or, if they all realized the potential for bloodbath, it may be that none of them move (paralysis).<BR/><BR/>An interesting problem, to be sure.Bapudihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378055512802727097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136332944757931222006-01-03T16:02:00.000-08:002006-01-03T16:02:00.000-08:00Ok... I think I understand now. The assumption is...Ok... I think I understand now. The assumption is that not only are the lions equal in being superlogical, but they are also each aware that the other lions are all equal and superlogical (and therefor super-predictable).<BR/><BR/>Ok, thanks for the explanation. I'll have to read about game theory. Sounds interresting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136276757526511672006-01-03T00:25:00.000-08:002006-01-03T00:25:00.000-08:00CiscoIf there are 3 lions, the nearest will in fac...Cisco<BR/><BR/>If there are 3 lions, the nearest will in fact pounce, secure in the knowledge that now, effectively, n=2. With only two lions left, the tired lion is safe. That is, the condition of two hungry lions and one defenseless animal (be it feline or bovine) is stable, but 3 hungry lions is not. 4 hungry lions is therefore stable (no one wants to be the defenseless animal in the unstable situation of 3 hungry lions). And so 5 is unstable, and 6 is stable...David Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075075203254308405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136271002678893122006-01-02T22:50:00.000-08:002006-01-02T22:50:00.000-08:00Ok, I'm fascinated but confused... and almost a mo...Ok, I'm fascinated but confused... and almost a month late on this topic (but I just found your blog so cut me some slack).<BR/><BR/>You say that if there are two lions neither will eat the lamb because they fear being eaten (therefore fear of being eaten is stronger than their hunger). Why does this change with 3 lions? The first lion to pounce would surely know he would be killed just as he did when there was only 2 right?<BR/><BR/>So why are lions only suicidal when they travel in odd numbers?<BR/><BR/>Seems to me the lions that are able to form the largest power block to defeat the other lions and get the sheep will be the ones to survive (assuming there is no other source of food). But that's probably going outside the rules of the game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136222811689721492006-01-02T09:26:00.000-08:002006-01-02T09:26:00.000-08:00Many of you people are colossal nerds, but I say s...Many of you people are colossal nerds, but I say so with utmost admiration as I can only sniff at such intellectual calisthenics. I am now hooked on this blog after stumbling across it in a random moment of boredom.<BR/><BR/>Jeff - CalgaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136222192643923532006-01-02T09:16:00.000-08:002006-01-02T09:16:00.000-08:00Bapudi,Your scenario does not apply. I think you m...Bapudi,<BR/><BR/>Your scenario does not apply. I think you must have missed this sentence when your read the problem:<BR/><BR/>"Any lion can eat the sheep but, as each lion knows, it would become so tired that it would be as defenseless as a sheep itself--easy prey for another hungry lion..."<BR/><BR/>The lions become tired and defenseless only after eating the huge meal. <BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/>DavidDavid Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075075203254308405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136212104816892152006-01-02T06:28:00.000-08:002006-01-02T06:28:00.000-08:00I believe Rob's solution is too limited, even if y...I believe Rob's solution is too limited, even if you only use logic to solve the puzzle.<BR/><BR/>Suppose there are an even number of lions. The sheep is safe, and every lion knows it (since they're all super-rational and excellent at using recursive logic). <BR/><BR/>However, a logical lion could also kill another lion *first*, thus creating an odd number of lions. Then it would be free to eat the sheep. I don't believe the puzzle's rules explicitly forbid this.<BR/><BR/>Of course, if all the lions realized this simultaneously, it could either produce a bloodbath, or a dead standstill where no one moves. <BR/><BR/>However, the puzzle's rules did not stipulate that all the lions think at the same speed. Therefore, given an even number of lions, the super-rational lion who thinks the fastest would kill another lion and then eat the sheep. Or, assuming he has no preference for bovine over feline meat, he may just eat another lion and leave the sheep to graze in peace. <BR/><BR/>If the idea is to solve the puzzle using only logic and the rules provided in the puzzle itself, then this scenario is impossible to ignore.Bapudihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00378055512802727097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1136083578027661722005-12-31T18:46:00.000-08:002005-12-31T18:46:00.000-08:00Don't know how i got here, but lions aren't cannib...Don't know how i got here, but lions aren't cannibals, nor can they count. Why don't you use entities that make sense for your example, like people and parking spaces?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1135962182896724182005-12-30T09:03:00.000-08:002005-12-30T09:03:00.000-08:00Anonymous, Two sheep--I like that twist. If a lion...Anonymous, <BR/><BR/>Two sheep--I like that twist. If a lion can eat both sheep at once, it's the same problem as before so I presume that in your variation, each lion can eat one sheep before growing tired. But to apply game theory, we need to understand the rules--with a tired lion and a sheep to choose from, which would a hungry lion eat? Is it random? If n=2, could the two lions effectively safely split the two sheep up (that's quite an assumption)? This assumption directly impacts the answer...<BR/><BR/>If it's random as to which prey dies, then it's not a stretch to say that with n=2, the sheep don't get eaten because lions wouldn't eat if it meant a 50% chance of dying in the jaws of the other. In that case, the answer remains the same as before--a sheep gets eaten if n is odd, but under no circumstances do both sheep get eaten!<BR/><BR/>But if the lions even slightly prefer mutton to cannibalism, then that precisely flips the answer, so that for n greater than 2, one sheep gets eaten if n is even, but again the second sheep is always safe. (For n<=2 the formula doesn't apply--all lions will eat all available sheep.) <BR/><BR/>Thank you for the stimulating variation. But now we must endure the torrent of posts on feline and bovine psychology...David Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075075203254308405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1135944901287753812005-12-30T04:15:00.000-08:002005-12-30T04:15:00.000-08:00This is interesting artcile.I hope you will post t...This is interesting artcile.<BR/>I hope you will post the explanation is future.<BR/>I am Arindam. I am Communication egineer working as program director in a large telecom company in India.<BR/>I assist people in money management as economics and financial engineering is my favourite subject<BR/>Arindam ( www.nectarofwisdom.com)arindamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01759700649010099637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1135930583897432452005-12-30T00:16:00.000-08:002005-12-30T00:16:00.000-08:00What if there were two sheep?What if there were two sheep?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1135810465063788162005-12-28T14:54:00.000-08:002005-12-28T14:54:00.000-08:00First, in reality, the lion wouldn't become all th...First, in reality, the lion wouldn't become all that tired by eating a sheep, and lions don't eat other lions (as far as I know), and lions aren't super-rational. They are often hungry. But my answer is yes. A lion(ess) pounces on the sheep, because she knows that the energy gained from eating the sheep will likely outweigh, or at least be equal to, the energy spent eating it. Being at least as strong or stronger than the starving, and thus weakened, lions surrounding her, she will be able to strike successfully at them too and will end up fat as a pig by the end of her n lion slaughter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1135794753673025802005-12-28T10:32:00.000-08:002005-12-28T10:32:00.000-08:00Crap, i had the solution when i read the original ...Crap, i had the solution when i read the original comment.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me like the sheep is going to live a long time, hahhahahaSuPerDuDehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13113475548122119256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1135788161771316832005-12-28T08:42:00.000-08:002005-12-28T08:42:00.000-08:00The lion will transport the sheep to a safe local ...The lion will transport the sheep to a safe local and eat him in privacy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14442178.post-1135724836685176252005-12-27T15:07:00.000-08:002005-12-27T15:07:00.000-08:00the sheep will eat the nearest lionthe sheep will eat the nearest lionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com